Regardless of what these gun people want you NOT to think about when talking about how corrupt of an industry, here is the COMPREHENSIVE REPORT THAT DETAILS THE TRUE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS GUN INDUSTRY IMMUNITY that the gun seller would not admit to for some reason. Even though it is a law, he would not address the true issue which gives the gun industry the ability to run wild without any real due process of any real law and any without any real regard for human life. They blame everything but the gun and the bullets for all deaths done by bullets and guns.
The report, “Justice Denied: The Case Against Gun Industry Immunity,” exposes the unprecedented legal immunity provided to the gun industry by the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, details the practical effect of the law on actual court cases, and provides potential solutions to the problems the law has created.
“The gun industry, under the PLCAA, has singular protection from legal accountability, something unparalleled in any other industry, adding further harm and suffering to gun violence victims who deserve to see justice,” said Josh Horwitz, executive director of the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence (the sister organization of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence), the organization behind the report. “Even in other industries – vaccine manufacturers and general aviation manufacturers, for instance, who have some immunity from civil lawsuits – the protections are limited in ways that we don’t see with the gun industry.
Although proponents of the law claim the PLCAA was intended to apply to an “extremely narrow category of lawsuits,” the new report shows that in practice, the law is shielding gun manufacturers from legitimate complaints involving real negligence.
The report shares the story of the Ileto family. Because of the PLCAA, the Ileto family’s case against gun manufacturer Glock was dismissed after six years of litigation as it was headed to trial.
“After my brother, Joseph, was killed by a neo-Nazi who shot him nine times, Congress added insult to this tragedy by making sure that the courthouse door was slammed in our family’s face,” said Ismael Ileto, whose brother, Joseph Ileto, was shot and killed in 1999. “We were denied the basic right to pursue justice because Congress decided to protect profits over people.”
“Justice Denied” also proposes solutions to the problems created by the PLCAA, including the Equal Access to Justice for Victims of Gun Violence Act. The legislation was recently introduced in the House of Representatives by California Congressman Adam Schiff.
“The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act creates a dangerous situation which must be rectified through federal legislation,” said Horwitz. “The Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence is grateful to Representative Schiff for his leadership and understanding of the need to give gun violence victims their much-needed day in court.”
“Under the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, the gun industry has little or no incentive to prevent its products from falling into the hands of criminals, firearms traffickers or other dangerous individuals,” said Horwitz. “As the sister of a D.C. sniper victim once noted, ‘We have more control over the toy industry or the car industry than we do over the gun industry.’ That’s just plain wrong.”
The Ed Fund released the report at an afternoon forum featuring panelists including Rep. Adam Schiff (D. – Calif.); Jon Lowy, director of the Legal Action Project of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence; and Ismael Ileto, whose family has been barred from holding the gun industry accountable for killing his brother, thanks to the PLCAA.
The full report, and additional information on gun industry immunity, is available at http://www.efsgv.org/reports.
The Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence (Ed Fund) was founded in 1978 as a 501(c)(3) affiliate organization of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. The Ed Fund has engaged in a number of successful public education campaigns over the years aimed at reducing gun death and injury.
I thought long and hard about what to write today when it comes to gun safety issues and the gun violence we face everyday. I think the best way to alert people as to how a gun seller thinks about it in our society, is to merely copy and paste a thread from the Chris Jansing show blog that I had started and I had with either one of the dumbest people I have had to talk to about gun safety, or he is diabolically being smart about it. I can’t tell yet but i am trying to flush it out. Honestly, it was like dealing with Nigel from Spinal tap. I give a fact and then I am told I am wrong while also being told that I am “spouting out” things that again, are all “wrong” except of course when I ask this person “what am I saying that is so wrong?”, he leaves the conversation without telling me or maybe he blamed the VA Tech shooting on anything but the bullets and the guns. I dunno.
This guy says that I am wrong but he just will not tell me what is / was wrong with the things that I say. Because no matter when I write anything, if I do NOT know what I am saying is a fact, I say that I “think” or that it “maybe” and I make that claim every time. In this case, I was just told that I am wrong. Even about things that are facts. I was NOT told why its wrong; but that its wrong. He even asked me about what I think about the gun show loophole which I told him what I knew but i got nothing replied to about it. Which i guess assumes that I am/was correct about what I said in writing. I am still not certain of what I was wrong about yesterday.
But serious, when you blame mental health on the kid that say, shot up the VA Tech school, how does this guy know what that mass murderer guy was thinking, let alone what his MO was to do it? There was no manifesto left by him as far as I know, and so its all speculative to just merely toss that blame onto ONLY mental behavior. There was a gun and many bullets used in every death during that shooting. Why does he just bring up mental health without mentioning the gun and bullets used when killing people on that campus? Besides, (again, as far as i know about that dead kid) what he describes about that VA Tech kid is NOT based on any fact. Its hearsay. It is based only on what he…one man that sells guns….thinks about what went down at VA Tech that day. Its his own opinion. And, who is this guy anyway? For anyone to think that anything they say should be the law of the land when again, it’s based on nothing but his hearsay, is not normal (let alone is arrogant).
I just want everyone to see a typical conversation of what a person that sells guns as living thinks about what to do about gun safety…which is less than what we do now even though we have 10K deaths a year because of guns and bullets. This guy feels that we should do less with regard to any background check and with regard to tightening up the loop holes that give whomever the ability to sell guns to people in an immoral way, and/or in a corrupt way. He makes a point that anything we do to try to prevent people from being killed by assholes that have to use a gun for anything at all, should be lessened and they merely do NOT work.
This is why that gun industry is the most corrupt industry on the planet. They do NOT care who they sell a gun to no matter if it’s sold to a criminal or whether it’s used in any crime. This guy falls back on that true law with regard to chex saying that they can’t by law, sell to people who have mental health issues. I guess there is no law saying that you can’t sell to known criminals that commit crimes and that is what he rationalizes in his head every day. I assume he just blocks it out after he makes that sale. It seems like they have no care so long as they make that sale. Which is fine to make sales in our capitalist society, but not when it costs other people’s lives. That’s when the line gets drawn so fuck the gun industry. It’s a corrupt industry that is no doubt a part of 100% of all deaths done by guns and bullets.
Besides, fundamentally speaking about gun violence today, its implied that if you need a gun for anything at all, that you are a class a pussy. That needs a gun. After all, u need a gun. People that need guns are lazy. They do not want to do the work to build their own self up to be able to protect their own family or whatever bullshit excuse gun sellers give as to why we need guns around every household. If you can’t protect your family or if you canNOT hunt like a real man, with your bare hands, and if you need a gun to do that dirty work, then yes, U are a pussy. That needs a gun. Because people that are NOT pussies, do NOT need guns. If you need to hunt from a tree house or from a far or if you need to shoot anything from a far without facing them man to man and/or face to face like a man, than yes, you are a pussy that needs a gun to do your dirty work. If you need to steal from other people or commit crimes using a gun then not only are you an asshole for acting that way, you are also a pussy that is too lazy to work like real men that make their money to put food on their tables (so to speak). Even after you kill someone or an animal with a gun and a bullet and even if you think you have some type of power for doing it, you have to live with that fact that you had to use a gun because you could NOT deal like real men. With your bare hands or with your brain. That’s real power! You people that have to fall back on having to use a gun, are weak people. Which is an easy cop out. If you need to overtake the government with your weaponry than again, you are a dumb ass lazy person that can NOT deal with it by using your brain. I reiterate here that it is implied that if you need a gun for anything at all, you are a pussy that needs a gun. Why else would you need a gun if you were not a pussy? You could NOT deal on your own with your own real power and real strength.
That’s the great irony with you weirdos that need guns in your odd life. There are really no positives to having a gun. People say its fun but its adolescent fun. And, if you like killing things than please stay away from me but most of all, get a life. Grow up.
And, BTW, whats is the real % of people who actually fall into the category of having to protect themselves on their own property by using their gun? I think its like 6/10th’s of 1% of the deaths every year that is caused by guns and bullets. Maybe even less %.
He also mentioned something about the auto industry and us not being able to sue whomever for a faulty part when that is not true. If a car company shows that neglect knowingly skimping to make more money at better profit margins, they are indeed liable. There have many lawsuits that shook up companies and manufacturers in that industry making it a safe one today. Besides, when they have safety issues, they “recall” entire vehicles to fix it. That happens thousands of times every year. It’s not a real comparison to draw between the gun industry and the automobile industry. And, aside from that 2nd Amendment you people fallback on when talking about gunz, the use of guns is really just a hobby for all intent and its purpose. It is a luxury to have a gun (even though again, you say its your right, but we do NOT need guns to live a life in today’s society). Having a car is basically a need in most people’s lives today. A car in many societies in this world and in America, is a necessity. A gun is NOT a necessity. Even if you have that 2nd Amendment argument. U do NOT need a gun to survive in today’s society whereas the use of a car is necessary in many places in our society today. What a car does for humans every day is way different from what a gun does for humans everyday. If anyone does speak of car deaths vs gun deaths, I can safely say that more people are responsible for other people’s deaths when using a gun and a bullet than when crashing a car because of some faulty issue or part. That never happens quite frankly. Or, not since when Pinto’s used to catch on fire. That shit went out i the 70s. Seat belts have become mandatory since then. Speed limits were implemented accordingly higher and lower than 55, as a way to help in part, provide for automobile safety along with efficiency. The gun industry fights anything parallel to what the car industry has done for safety issues.
Or, fine. Lets set up the same exact restrictions, regulations and mandates that we have in place today for automobile usage, to gun usage (See Graphic Above). Since that is the parallel drawn here and comparison made between industries, than great…lets do things that same way. But you know how that goes, they are very linear and selective when it comes to their opinions. They think right up to that point when it affects them in some way. I agree then. Lets act the same way we do for the auto industry, towards the gun industry. That’s great. Lets start with the contents in that graph above and not at some make believe faulty part made by some phantom manufacturer.
Overall though, this is our debate below copied and pasted verbatim from yesterday. He said that I am spouting out wrong information without telling anyone what exactly I said that was wrong while making those passive aggressive comments without the basis to any of it. I maintain that he gives hearsay reasons why this happened and why that happened when in EVERY CASE OF MURDERS DONE BY GUNS AND BULLETS….THERE IS A GUN AND BULLET….Every other explanation and every other blame and excuse is hearsay. The one constant is that bullet and that gun. In every one, and I mean every case in the history of life where there is a bullet and a gun used to kill something, there is the bullet and the gun. Its like someone asking who is buried in Grant’s Tomb? Or when is the war of 1812 because it’s the same thing here…in every cases and I mean 100% of every time in the history of the world when someone dies because of a gun and a bullet; there is the gun and the bullet that was used to do it…ITS STATED IN THE VERY SENTENCE THAT WHEN PEOPLE DIE FROM BULLETS AND GUNS…THAT A BULLET AND GUN IS USED TO DO IT EVERY TIME….
We need to admit to that science. We then need to work outward from science and not from everyone’s hearsay, in order to gain as much gun safety as possible for this world and in America. If you do NOT admit to that science and when you blame anything else and everything else as the main problems we face with regard to gun safety issues, you are being delusional about it. Or, you are dealing in a diabolical way where you just don’t care morally about where you sell a gun so long as you make whatever money doing it.
People can say its mental health issues or because of films or video games coupled with bad parenting, but that’s all speculation. That’s hearsay. U cant get into the mind of every killer to draw in whatever its reason was 150% of the time. In many cases, the murderer is dead so we never even know the true MO for real. We do know however, every time it happens, that a gun and a bullet was used and that’s the ONLY thing 150% known when someone uses it to kill people and animals.
The ONLY thing involved in every murder case that involves guns and bullets is the gun and the bullet used to kill whatever it killed….
Again, this is what its like to deal with someone like Nigel from Spinal tap. This is what its like to deal with someone so brain washed and so delusional because it’s the same type of conversation here that Nigel from Spinal tap has about his amplifier going to eleven rather than the usual ten. In his mind, he thinks its louder even though any volume is based on decibel levels and not the numbers on the front of the amp. And, even though he is told that it makes no difference what number you have on an amp, he still falls back on saying that it goes to eleven (therefore its louder).
These are the people with guns and bullets too but again, I want to break it (the gun violence problems we have in our society today) down more precisely, but that was the last thing this guy wanted to do within that conversation. He just wanted to say vague things blaming anything for every major shooting on anything else in life, but the actual gun and bullet. It’s a very odd conversation as I think about it. They jump over the gun and bullet part of every death involving guns and bullets.
No matter what I said in it and no matter how I acted yesterday and towards this simple-minded guy, it needs to be out there for anyone to see verbatim and for better and worse either way…kinda says it all about the debate….I am told I know nothing by someone who knows nothing and he is in the industry…unless he does and just wont admit to it. Maybe he is diabolical enough to just block out where guns go after he sells them to whomever but I just don’t believe he is that smart….I don’t think he knows or maybe he wont admit to his industry being given blanketed immunity to any law suit or to be thrown in jail for illegally selling guns to corrupt people…or then again…i am sure they like having that law in place…Hell…what industry would NOT want to be blanketed from any law suit? I do NOT know what to think about this guy. I question whether he smart enough to think that diabolically or whether he just does not know….he wont talk about it…He says that I am wrong when I am not at all wrong about any fact i lay down….i can safely say that no matter what…it ain’t normal and it ain’t cool to knowingly sell guns and bullets to any known criminals that use guns for crimes in any way…end of fricking story….come on now….this is asinine to be discussed out loud….if you do that at all, you are dirt ball quite frankly for allowing it…and you are weak if you can sleep at night knowing you are selling guns to people who use them to kill other people and to commit crimes…My overall point in this debate is that what incentive is there not to act that way when you can’t be sued or thrown in jail for your part in it? The irony is that the ONLY thing involved in EVERY murder and crime completed with a bullet and a gun, is the bullet and the gun….and these people who sell these things are the very ones that are blanketed from being a part of any law suit and from many safety laws:
And, the gun issue is this way because no one is accountable…they can sell a gun to whomever without a background check and without the industry being able to be sued..or mandated to place safety items on it (A BB Gun manufacturer can be sued and told to use safety items but a regular gun manufacturer that shoots bullets to kill things can NOT be sued in any way)…and so you have the ability to sell gunz in any anyway…to a kook….and then you add in stand your ground laws…holy shit..that comes full circle that anyone can shoot whatever…deal with it later George Zimmerman style…and if/when he gets it illegally….no one can be sued..no one is at fault…no one is liable…..you can get away with murder today easier than in the wild wild west days…Its gross….its weak….if you want to begin anything with regard to gun safety issues…start here with this bill thats been sitting dormant since last january…(http://s2entertainment.wix.com/sustainableaction#!gun-safety/czaz)….get adam schiff to make more of stink about his own bill…or amendment…start here though…someone needs to be liable when killing other things….start there….enough with the BS..its a corrupt industry that no one is accountable for the 190K deaths because of bullets and gunz every year…come the fuck on…what if a disease killed that many people every year…be real….and again..its the same yahoos buying more guns..the vast amount people that buys guys is low…the people that have them are buying more of them,..thats why that stat is high….we can alter it if we deal the real way…fuck background checks..start with the corrupt laws set in place today….work outward from there….
Ray Schneider A lot of wrong info here, buddy… check the facts on background checks and lawsuits. Suing the ammo company is like suing ford when there is drunk driving accident. When will people learn to shift their anger and attention to the PERSON, not the instrument? Misdirected rage and true ignorance by most people regarding the facts of gun ownership/violence.
Don Lichterman No. its like suing the bar owner or person selling it to someone that should not have the alcohol. You canNOT sue the gun manufacturer or gun seller for anything like you say. Its a law set into place in 05. You have no checks and balances when selling…See More
Ray Schneider Dude, your claims about the process of licensed dealers, checks and balances, and background checks are grossly inaccurate. You’re painting with a broad brush when gun laws are anything but. Gun laws and procedures are written at the state, federal, and sometimes city/county level. I’m not arguing a gun violence problem, I’m saying that your claims regarding the transfer of on any level are inaccurate.
Don Lichterman Either am I…I dont even care about gun safety issues except for the part that is corrupt…and fixed…thats all I am saying…no industry in the history of mankind canNOT be sued except for this gun industry….then you argue for no background checks which I get…(ie: where do you start and stop because in reality…I dont want a prozac user that forgets to take his meds one day…to have a gun…and thats 100% legal but thats me….so again..I know background chex do NOT work….or would NOT work for real….) will NOT workin broad scheme of life (I have said that to you this year)….then you dodge safety issues that BB Gun manufacturers have to adhere to, to make it easy for something i am not sure about…..and then couple that with stand your ground laws where you can shoot…say you were scared…and get off scott free like zimmerman…with that said…after that sniper case maybe…(where he was able to get a bush maker with no check whats oever) and as that law in 05 went into effect to immune the gun industry from law suits……There were a documented of more than 100 or “hundreds of guns” used I should say, that had been missing from that this one particular store. Including that one that was used to randomly kill those ten people in DC/MD. From the late 1990′s and through those early 2000′s, there were many of these types of cases that brought to claim these types of law suits. People were suing gun makers and the manufactures of certain guns that were used in violent crimes, and, that were obtained somehow illegally or in corrupt ways. New York City, New Orleans, Chicago, Gary, Indiana, Miami, Bridgeport, Connecticut, Atlanta and TWO THOUSAND (2,000) other US cities sued a mere TWENTY (20) gun manufacturers in that span of time. The arguments were all based on that these gun makers and gun sellers “built up a distribution system for its’ product that allowed and encouraged these types of illegal sales to people that should not have guns in the first place.” In reality, there was one particular company and/or a select few companies that sells guns in these corrupt and illegal ways. They also knew that they are/were selling those guns to actual criminals that would then in turn use those same guns to commit a crime. I do NOT see why that person is not up for manslaughter quite frankly. Not the regular gun salesman. I am not saying ban guns. I am saying something and someone needs to be accountable…not the video co. not quinton and not anything but the gun and bullet people…they need to be responsible in some bigger and better way….
Don Lichterman As for the gun show loop hole. I know that law or whatever rule is done by state…so it differs per state…but thats not my point..my point is that its doable…I do know that again…if you want to sell a gun at certain gun shows and in certain states, without doing any type of deep background check, it can be done over the table. I also know that in some cases with some sellers…you can buy a gun…leave the building…walk back in to buy another one while being able to do that many times…which Ill assume there is a limit to how many guns you can buy at one time..I could feasibly be wrong about it….thats what i know about the loop hole and I also know that loop hole or loop holes I should say…are for people in the know…not every human would know to deal that way but i am saying it can be done….I get thats its not common. I get that the bulk of sales are done legally at stores. I a saying it can be done. You can get around certain chex at conventions that you canNOt in stores…thats how I see the gun show loop hole…
Ray Schneider I am not arguing against background checks. I support them. But your understanding of how the process works, and when a check takes place is wrong. Mental health? Virginia Tech shooter should not have been allowed to purchase. BUT Virginia did not process his mental health docs and forward them to the NICS (National Instant Check System) FBI. Therefore he was approved. Virginia dropped the ball. Who’s fault is that? The FBI approved his purchase because they didnt know he had problems. Virginia knew and bungled the paperwork, like most government agencies. 50 years ago, elementary school children would bring .22cal rifles to school because they had after school activities… boy scouts, gun clubs etc.. We didnt have the problems we have now. Guns were infinitely more accessible 50 years ago.. so whats the difference between now and then? People. The difference is the person, not guns or their accessibility. Why would gun violence increase now if they are more restricted than ever. That statement is FACT. The acquisition of firearms is exponentially harder now that ever, yet more violence. Oswald ordered is gun by mail. Guns in the 1950′s didnt even have serial numbers and you could buy them anonymously, with cash but we didnt have the problems we have now. Curious, I think…
Don Lichterman No. No. No. I dont even believe in background chex. I am saying where and whom is accountable…i think background chex would be joke but there should be something that is guided by the law…with mental health..i am saying where do you stop and start? Lets say joe the gun activist and avid hunter is prescribed some pill by a doctor…the ones you take to not get angry or whatever the prozacs and zolofts and whatever pills people take every day…my feeling is you do NOT take that pill..and you have a gun…that would suck but ya know…how would you mandate it? I dont think mental behavior would be easy to gauge…because again..what determines loose mental behavior when it comes to gunz and bullets….
Ray Schneider per the law, anyone person who is involuntarily committed for mental health reasons is immediately ineligible for firearms ownership. (along with various other deal-breakers) it stops and starts with accurate mental health reporting by the states to the feds. they have to process the information and forward it to the FBI.
Don Lichterman Thats what I am saying….you can’t gauge it…hence me not believeing in so called background checks. I am not a backer of it.I am saying thats part of the overall problem. the fact that no one is liable mixed with the fact there is no checks or whatever..coupled with stand your ground laws…coupled with people that break the law…(again…those people that break the law cannot be sued in any way…IT CANT HAPPEN BY LAW……No matter what law is broken….and therefore if whomever breaks the law…and its used in murdering people….that company still is NOT responsible in any way….). Is anyone but the movie company responsible for it?
Don Lichterman Plus…in one region in america..its mandatory to have a gun….in another region…blind people gun use guns in public…another county will arrest any law enforcement person if they inturn arrest anyone that happens to use a gun….then you have that end all be all law where no one can sued or tossed into jail for doing corrupt things like selling gunz in illegal ways….what else do you want for gods sakes? I mean as Bil maher said about y’all at this time is that arnt you just fucking with us now…seriously…where are we headed here…it comes full circle where whomever can stand their ground if you will..after getting a gun easily…while being a kook…without any establishment in the entire industry being liable in any way…you got it made bra…..
Don Lichterman What is false? In every murder or crime completed with a bullet and a gun…there is one scientific constant in every one of those events…the bullet and the gun. If there were no bullets and no guns. There would be no murders done with them. Thats Science. Now again…when you blame films or TV shows or video games…thats hearsay….is that NOT true? How is that a false statement? Now…is it false that the gun industry is immune to any law suit in any way no matter whether they illegally or distribute and sell guns to criminals that use them to kill people? is that not true? whats not true here? whats the false statement that I laid down as fact? Is there not an easy way for anyone to go to a convention or buy from somewhere online? Is there not an easy way to buy many guns at a gun convention if you manipulate it certain ways? is that not true? is that false to say? Because thats been proven many times…what is wrong here? What did I say that is wrong on this public forum?
Don Lichterman And, then conversely…you have said nothing factual…..its all your opinion based… Nothing is based on science. Nothing is based on fact. Not one thing you say has any real truth to it. its delusion to blame anything else but the gun and the bullet when speaking about gun violence, gun safety let alone murders and crimes completed with them….this is the most asinine conversation that I am having with someone so linear….whatever…feel free to blame everything but the bullet and the gun when debating gun violence…..because yeah….its everything else at fault…gun deaths have NOTHING to do with bullets and guns….jesus fucking christ….
Don Lichterman Of course…see ya…these go to eleven….its like dealing with nigel from spinal tap….its everything else but the gun and bullet when discussing crimes and murders done with guns and bullets….10K a year…its a fucking problem….own it….
- NJ mayor to begin quizzing gun manufacturers on safety before granting contracts (pix11.com)
- Decision in Badger Guns case delayed until January (jsonline.com)
- 26 states flunk on Brady Campaign’s gun safety Scorecard (rinf.com)
- NRA Board Member Invokes Holocaust To Insult Mayor Over Gun Safety Survey (syndicatednewsservices.com)
- Jersey City to require gun vendors to answers Qs about gun safety (nj.com)
- AP: NJ City to Quiz Gun Vendors on Safety Issues (abcnews.go.com)
- 26 states flunk on Brady Campaign’s gun safety Scorecard, Alabama gets highest failing score (al.com)
- Moms Demand Action Infiltrate NJ Police Procurement Process (thetruthaboutguns.com)
- Our View: Sandy Hook Promise is about protecting children (norwichbulletin.com)
- Florida Congressman to Hold Gun Safety Rally on Sandy Hook Anniversary (nyfirearms.com)